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"Andrea I realize you are an interested student in, rather than a proponent of, Campbell's work," stated Ben, "so what I have to say is really being thrown out for general consideration, but what, exactly, does completely surrendering to, and identifying with, a myth involve? Is this just a matter of believing in, and accepting as true, what someone's interpretation claims is the truth concerning such a myth? Or, is something beyond mere belief in, or acceptance of, the interpretation of a myth necessary?

"Should one become obsessed with a myth in order to properly identify with it? Should one become fanatical about the myth in order to surrender oneself to it completely?

"I suspect Joseph Campbell would say no to both of these suggestions. Yet, one is not at all clear about what one should be doing that has some sort of practical or reasonable demeanor to it rather than possessing an obsessive or fanatical quality.

"When Campbell speaks about the emotions that are released through the process in which a myth's symbol elicits human response, is this merely a matter of having emotions of a certain level of intensity? And, if so, what level of intensity is this, and why is such a level of intensity considered to be appropriate?

"Should the emotional intensity be just high enough to help motivate or inspire an individual to carry through in the realm of action? And, if one does not have this level of emotional intensity, then to what is one to attribute the problem?

"Is the reason for such an inadequate emotional response due to an improper construction of the myth or an error in the nature of the symbols that were implanted there? Or, does the fault lie wholly with the individual who is encountering the myth? Or, should we consider the possibility that Campbell's description of the nature, potential and power of myth is not what he claims to be the case?

"Should the actions in which an individual engages be limited to the sorts of thing that Campbell did, such as reading about, interpreting and reflecting on myths? Or, was Campbell mistaken in all of this and, in point of fact, other kinds of action are required, and, if so, what are these actions?

"Moreover, I'm sure there were millions of people among Campbell's students, readers and viewers who felt about organized religion in the same way that Campbell did. Why haven't all these people become self-realized and self-fulfilled - as I presume is not the case or else we would be living, I think, in a much different, hopefully much improved, society than the one we find around us?"

"Ben, I share some of your concerns in relation to Campbell's work," asserted Vince, "but I have a feeling Andrea had a few more things to say that may have some bearing on our questions. Why don't we let her finish and see how these issues fare at that time?"

Nodding in agreement with Vince's words, Ben apologized to Andrea. "I'm sorry for interrupting, I think your discussion must have triggered some sort of innate releasing mechanism in me," he said with a smile.

"No apologies are necessary, Ben," she replied. "I do have a few more things to say, but I'm not certain any of it will address your concerns in a way that will satisfy either you or Vince.

"On the other hand, the new material may provide a bit fuller outline of Campbell's general perspective than presently is the case. If you bear with me, I should be able to finish things off in fairly short order, and, then, in line with Vince's suggestion, we can see how things stand."

Ben gave a sign requesting her to resume. Upon seeing Ben's gesture, Andrea said: "There is another important difference between Campbell and Jung which I forgot to mention earlier, and this has to do with how they looked at the unconscious.

"For Jung, the unconscious was always unconscious and remained so even after one's encounters with it. As David had pointed out earlier, one of the differences between Freud and Jung is that the former believed much of the contents of the unconscious were filled with repressed materials, whereas Jung considered the unconscious to contain archetypes that had never been conscious and really were not capable of being made conscious, although the archetypes certainly could shape, direct and modulate the structural character of consciousness.

"If we leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether or not the psychological material of primitive humans - out of which archetypes, somehow, supposedly were constructed - gave expression to conscious or unconscious forces, then, one can say Jung believed the archetypes did not consist of formerly conscious material that had been deposited in the unconscious. Campbell, on the other hand, maintained the unconscious consisted of materials that once had been conscious but, for reasons he never made very clear, were, now, removed from, or lost from, or separated off from our normal modalities of consciousness.

"Indeed, Campbell's book: The Hero with a Thousand Faces, which he is reported to have considered his most important work, has as one of its central motifs an exploration of the hero's quest in relation to this lost dimension of being fully human. According to Campbell, the task of the hero is to reclaim, repossess or rediscover that which human beings once consciously knew and understood.

"In fact, the sages who are responsible for constructing myths are examples of the hero who has regained the lost wisdom. Then, after having completed the first part of the mission, these heroes have set about consciously planting various metaphysical seeds, in the form of symbols within a given myth, with the intention of inducing others to take the inward journey to the unconscious and also make conscious what is now hidden.

"The basic story line in all hero myths is, for Campbell, essentially the same. As one moves from one culture to the next, whatever differences occur in various hero myths are considered by Campbell to be unimportant to the basic teaching function of these myths, and, as such, these differences are part and parcel of Campbell's claim there is only one hero who is manifested in the for of a thousand different faces, both literally and symbolically.

"The once and future hero, who is always a male figure, is, through one means or another, induced to leave behind the so-called normal world of everyday life and journey to another kind of realm, world, or dimension of being. In this new world, the hero encounters, and is exposed to, all manner of incredible, non-ordinary forces, powers and wonders.

"The hero is challenged, in some fashion, by one, or more, facets of this wondrous, mysterious realm. Yet, following a struggle and, eventually, a triumph over that by which this individual is being challenged, the hero returns to the world of everyday, normal life as an enlightened being with gifts to bestow on those who had been left behind at the beginning of the journey.

"The wisdom that the hero brings back from the journey is of two broad kinds. First of all, the hero comes to understand there is much more to both the world and himself than he previously believed or understood to be possible. Secondly, the individual gains insight into the fundamental or essential nature of the world and being human.

"Each dimension of essential reality, whether concerning the world or the individual, is, in a sense, a flip side of the same metaphysical coin. Within each of us, as well as within the world, a Divine principle is operative that is responsible for the identity and nature of, respectively, human beings and the physical/material world.

"The hero returns from his journey with the knowledge that one does not have to travel to some other mysterious realm or world in order to be able to encounter the ultimate animating principle of Divinity. For the enlightened individual, Divine, or ultimate, reality can be experienced in the midst of the material, physical world.

"Consequently, the material/physical world is not, at least as far as gaining access to essential or ultimate reality is concerned, the barrier we often tend to suppose it to be. When properly understood, this material world is one of the modalities through which ultimate reality reveals itself.

"Nonetheless, Campbell indicates one only comes to this realization after journeying to, and gaining insight into, the contents of the unconscious. One doesn't start with the external world, and through that encounter, one brings enlightenment to the internal world; rather, one starts with the internal world, and through that encounter, one gains insight into the real and essential nature of the external world.

"To be sure, one first comes into contact with the echoes of the ultimate nature of things, when one hears of, or reads about, the myths in the physical/material world since these myths contain the symbols that are capable of summoning one to the inward journey. However, these symbolic seeds only point to such a possibility, and must be properly interpreted before, according to Campbell, one can realize their meaning, value and significance.

"During the hero's journey inward to the unconscious realms of the mind, the individual must face, and triumph over, the personal ego of the everyday, normal world. When this transformation has taken place, the individual surfaces again with a new sense of self that is described as being egoless."

"Campbell considers the personal ego to be the source of all delusions, distortions, desires and problems to which human beings are vulnerable. Only by becoming removed, or detached, from one's sense of a personal ego, did Campbell believe the individual could obtain ultimate enlightenment and, consequently, gain insight into the true nature of the self and the world.

"By arguing in this fashion, Campbell aligns himself with the essential perspective of certain aspects of Eastern religious traditions such as Buddhism and Hinduism. He tended to express, at least up to a certain transitional point in his thinking, a great deal of admiration for this dimension of the teaching of these traditions.

"For Campbell, as for certain Eastern mystical traditions, there was no individual as such. All that existed was the one essential, ultimate principle of Divinity that was clothed in the guise of a thousand different outer faces of the hero.

"This brings us to, yet, another essential difference between the orientations of Campbell and Jung, if not, as well, almost all of modern psychotherapy. One of the primary functions of psychoanalytical intervention is to restore the individual to a state of healthy, ego functioning and consciousness.

"For Campbell, this goal was an oxymoron. Since the ego was the source of all our problems, by restoring the individual to such consciousness, one could not possibly produce a healthy person.

"True health lay in the direction of the egoless self of the enlightened individual. Therapy, of whatever sort, could not accomplish this.

"This task could be achieved only through myth. This is the reason why he considered myth was indispensable to the life of the individual, since without myth, Campbell believed the individual had no access to ultimate nature, identity, the self, or fulfilment.

"This also is related to Campbell's firm belief that modern civilization really can make no contribution that is capable of adding to, or improving upon, the insights of ancient wisdom. Since the fundamental insight of this wisdom concerns understanding why the condition of egolessness is to be preferred to a personal ego, all modern peoples can do is agree with this wisdom and set about realizing such a condition.

"The hero of myth and real life is considered a hero for several reasons. On the one hand, the hero is prepared to venture forth on a hazardous, difficult journey or quest which most others in normal society are not prepared to undertake.

"In addition, the motivations underlying the hero's quest is a selfless one. The hero wishes to share the wisdom with all of humanity.

"According to Campbell, the hero is tempted to remain in the new world of enlightenment. Apparently, there exists within the hero an inclination to completely surrender to this essential reality and, in the process, avoid having to be confronted by the duties and obligations that populate the world of individuality.

"Consequently, the final stage of the hero's journey is to disengage the self from the new world to which one has traveled. This is not easy since the hero has begun to feel he has finally arrived at one's real home in the universe."

Andrea picked up her soft drink can and finished off its contents. Settling a little more deeply into her chair, she signaled her Campbell retrospective had finished as well.

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